.

[rallyant]

They are quite popular on their home turf, over seas.

As for aerobatics, I think topless gliders have proven themselves quite well. That was an early concern, but I havent seen any issues.

no issues? how about that guy that tumbled, and pulled his keel right out of the glider into freefall. Which I suspect(my opinion as a structural engineer) is due in a VERY large part to the fact that no top rigging allows the keel to bend in the negative direction


ever give a guy a hang check on a topless, look how slack those front wires get if you really have to pull, do a hang check on a kingposted and you can pull all day and that keel isn't going anywhere because it is cable braced in every direction, this makes it much easier to break the keel at the apex after that it doesnt take much to pull it out of the nose plate, and you get what we see in that video

I agree Jason, The first thing i did was draw up a glider in solidworks and give it an FEA /stress test (I do this for a living) That was the first think i noticed.
Im sure if there were a big market for aerobatic flying they could/would sacrifice Drag by adding a kingpost, drop the weight of the glider and add overall strength.

[bdoets]

The more something bends, the less it is apt to break... the "pulling out the keel" that is referred to here is probably based on this Swiss video where a guy fails a loop and it looks like he pulls out either the keel or the crossbars. But it's neither, just his downtubes...
It is true that a topless glider may easier break its keel, even though a topless keel is buitl stronger then a kingposted one; after which the pilot suspension is generally free. But, the reports of this kind of accident are pretty rare anyway - besides, you'd have to pull the laundry, no matter wether you'd be flying topless or not.
Sprogs have bee proven to enable a much more accurate trimming of the pitch forces then luff lines.
Bart

[rallyant]

The more something bends, the less it is apt to break... the "pulling out the keel" that is referred to here is probably based on this Swiss video where a guy fails a loop and it looks like he pulls out either the keel or the crossbars. But it's neither, just his downtubes...
It is true that a topless glider may easier break its keel, even though a topless keel is buitl stronger then a kingposted one; after which the pilot suspension is generally free. But, the reports of this kind of accident are pretty rare anyway - besides, you'd have to pull the laundry, no matter wether you'd be flying topless or not.
Sprogs have bee proven to enable a much more accurate trimming of the pitch forces then luff lines.
Bart

yes im not sugesting you keep using luff lines etc. But some kind of hybrid might be a good idea in some situations?

[AP]

Bdoets

I might have a favorite if I tried different gliders all the time. As it is, I choose one and stay with it for 3-4 years... right now it happens to be a Talon, but just because I have not flown anything else lately does not mean I'm sure there isn't anything better.

Hear hear!
A couple of years ago I flew a Moyes Litespeed in a competition. Wow! I was really impressed with its handling and performance. Thermalled like it was on rails. I then realised that if I get opportunities to fly othe gliders I'm doing it and it seems to improve my flying in general.
I have the Airborne factory less than a mile from my home with launches nearby. As a result our club uses almost entirely Airborne product but this is also a result of the finish quality and workmanship of their gliders and the aftersale service. Their gliders have a beautiful feel to them.

Rallyant

The first thing i did was draw up a glider in solidworks and give it an FEA /stress test (I do this for a living) That was the first think i noticed.
Im sure if there were a big market for aerobatic flying they could/would sacrifice Drag by adding a kingpost, drop the weight of the glider and add overall strength.

Rallyant, It would be interesting to hear the full results. Was there anything else that stood out in the tests?
The trouble usually happens when the load goes -ive and the pilot hits the keel. Gliders are not designed for excessive negative G and certainly not for negative point loads on the keel. There have been cases where a tuck has put the pilot into the undersurface and broken the outboard LE's without breaking the keel. In this case a kingpost would not help but this is not the norm and the keel usualIy does break so a kingpost would help in most cases. And some would argue it is impossible to tuck/tumble anything other than a high performance ship by virtue of the chord/sweep etc typical of lower performance gliders.

[sg]

That brings up an interesting point.

Can anyone think of a single instance where an HG was tucked/tumbled due to non-aerobatics that was not an advanced glider?

None come to mind right now.

[Wingspan34]

Yes. Pre 1980, all sorts of basic rogallos were tucking. The simplest gliders of all the basic "Standard" rogallo wing, were known to go into what is called a "full luff dive". At times they would rotate past 90 degrees straight down. Defined tips tended to reduce that problem.

Now, you may be referring to the last 20 years. If so, I can't think of any in the recent past. But then there's that Utube video of that glider apparently going divergent at that high mountain desert site somewhere in northern asia(?). It had a king post. But then that glider was supposed to have been improperly assembled.

But I would say that, in my experience, almost any glider CAN tuck/tumble, given the right (i.e. wrong) conditions. Nasty turbulence can cause ANY glider to go over.

IMHO - with this question, there's no such thing as "You can't get there from here". "There" being a tuck/tumble and "here" being a lower performance glider.

[adi]

no pac.air option?

[FormerFF]

no pac.air option?

Pac Air, meaning Pacific Airwave? North Wing now builds the successor to the Vision/Pulse, the Horizon ET.

[TomGalvin]

no pac.air option?

Pac Air, meaning Pacific Airwave? North Wing now builds the successor to the Vision/Pulse, the Horizon ET.

Not the same thing. There were other models too.

[rallyant]

Rallyant

The first thing i did was draw up a glider in solidworks and give it an FEA /stress test (I do this for a living) That was the first think i noticed.
Im sure if there were a big market for aerobatic flying they could/would sacrifice Drag by adding a kingpost, drop the weight of the glider and add overall strength.

Rallyant, It would be interesting to hear the full results. Was there anything else that stood out in the tests?
The trouble usually happens when the load goes -ive and the pilot hits the keel. Gliders are not designed for excessive negative G and certainly not for negative point loads on the keel. There have been cases where a tuck has put the pilot into the undersurface and broken the outboard LE's without breaking the keel. In this case a kingpost would not help but this is not the norm and the keel usualIy does break so a kingpost would help in most cases. And some would argue it is impossible to tuck/tumble anything other than a high performance ship by virtue of the chord/sweep etc typical of lower performance gliders.

Oops i missed these posts.
When i get the time i will draw up a copy of existing gliders then do some FEAs, Then ill post an Edrawing of the FEA of both king posted and topless.
If my computer can do it that is.. was crunching numbers for a few hrs with the one i tested.

[FormerFF]

no pac.air option?

Pac Air, meaning Pacific Airwave? North Wing now builds the successor to the Vision/Pulse, the Horizon ET.

Not the same thing. There were other models too.

I thought that might be the case. But, if adi were a Vision/Pulse fan, he could give his vote for North Wing, since the only builders included are those that are currently still building gliders.

[FormerFF]

I chose Wills Wing for couple of reasons: They've been around a very long time, I'm impressed with their research and testing program, they only make hang gliders, and best of all, I fly one.

[fly n mater]

My first glider was a Pulse 14M, gawd I wish I had one still, then an Xtralite, then an MR700 and now a Falcon.

the Pulse was a dream to fly, tow, launch and land. Best dam overall glider I've had.

The Xtralite, a.k.a. Xtra-heavey, was okay. definately the stiffest glider I've owned.

The Lammie MR700 comes in 2nd to the Pulse in the overall fun thing and for every other catagory as well. Sweet glider. Got to loose some tonnage so I can get back on this glider.

The Falcon, well what can you say but its a Falcon. The only thing making it 3rd in the fun catagory is performance. But its great on those light, boaty days and puts out a wake that makes the PGs cringe when I go by them.

Mater

[lostgriz]

Yes. Pre 1980, all sorts of basic rogallos were tucking. The simplest gliders of all the basic "Standard" rogallo wing, were known to go into what is called a "full luff dive". At times they would rotate past 90 degrees straight down. Defined tips tended to reduce that problem.

Now, you may be referring to the last 20 years. If so, I can't think of any in the recent past. But then there's that Utube video of that glider apparently going divergent at that high mountain desert site somewhere in northern asia(?). It had a king post. But then that glider was supposed to have been improperly assembled.

But I would say that, in my experience, almost any glider CAN tuck/tumble, given the right (i.e. wrong) conditions. Nasty turbulence can cause ANY glider to go over.

IMHO - with this question, there's no such thing as "You can't get there from here". "There" being a tuck/tumble and "here" being a lower performance glider.

I was having a conversation at the training hill about tumbles a couple weeks ago. I am curious how often they happen in the modern era of hgs, during non aero flight? I understand that it can happen, but the answer I have gotten is that it really hasn't? At least nobody I talked to cold speak to the issue first hand,

[sg]

If we expand it to non-aero flight, and non-competition flight where hot shot pilots remove nearly all their dive recovery, its extremely rare. You will hear about one maybe once every few years.

[MRX]

Flew before with Airwave, Willswing XC, Laminar MRX, but now the Aeros Combat L is price one with me. I love the handling, aldo you need to get used to far away speedbar in the termals, but once you`ve done it, it`s superb. Landing with no problem (using a droge chute),.

[FBickford]

There is no option for Seedwings so I voted Aeros. Lucky I got into hang gliding after all the diving gliders and swingseats. I like all wings, but that doesn't mean I'll fly them.
I like the stories of "my first 360" especially.

This is a rough list of my flying progression so far.
harrier, supersport, harrier, K4, harrier, falcon, K4, litesport(demo), K4, horizon, topless Sensor (a really fun and predictable glider(I can go on and on))

Fred

[FBickford]

An 8 year old topless that is in really good shape made by Bob Trampenau himself. He is currently making hang gliders at his shop.

[FBickford]

I would like to see more about the euro models too. Fly the most with Aeros Combats.

[sg]

Where is this aeros combat land you fly in ?